Lyra Pierotti: Training for the Female Physiology - An Interview

We sit down with IFMGA-certified mountain guide Lyra Pierotti, a rare blend of international guide, avalanche professional, and strength and conditioning specialist, to unpack what it actually takes to build a long career in the mountains. Lyra shares how she found her way to the Sierra and the French Alps in early adulthood, her path into the guiding world, plus the honest realities of paying for certifications, chasing seasonal work, and making “security” mean more than a paycheck.

The conversation turns personal and practical as Lyra describes a major physical shutdown after a trip on Denali, the wake-up call of celiac-related inflammation, and the work of rebuilding toward true durability. We talk about why guiding is basically a high-volume endurance job, how climate change is reshaping glacier terrain and seasons, and why the old expectation of constant field days is fading.

Then we get into the training details women athletes wish they’d learned earlier: why many women need focused strength and power work, how menstrual cycle phases can affect recovery and fueling, and how to keep it simple with an energy log, cycle awareness, and optional HRV tracking. If you want better performance in climbing, ski mountaineering, or uphill endurance without burning out, this one is for you.

If it resonates, subscribe, share it with a training partner, and leave a review so more mountain athletes can find cycle-smart coaching and sustainable guiding stories.

Check out Lyra's business Movementum Training

Follow Lyra on instagram @pierotly

Listen to another interview with Lyra on the Female Guides Requested podcast

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Hosted by Jeannie Wall and Cat Coe

Audio production by Cat Coe

Episode cover photo by Mary Brown

Music by Holizna Radio, Kirk Osamayo, and Ketsa, respectively. All music sourced from freemusicarchive.org.

www. broadbeta.com

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

Cat 0:03

Welcome to the Broad Beta Podcast. I'm your producer and co-host, Katco.

Jeannie 0:08

And I'm Jeannie Wall, co-founder of Broad Data. And today we're excited to share stories of MAT women's adventures and to take a deep dive into how their lives have been transformed by their connection to wildness, both inside and out.

From Vallejo To The Sierra

Cat 0:25

Our guest on today's episode is Sarah Scarati. Clarence professional resume is one of the most impressive of all of our guests. She was the 18th American woman to earn IFMDA certification, giving her the ability to guide rock, alpine, and ski mountaineering internationally. She's also a certified Avalanche forecaster and an instructor trainer for ARI. But our conversation today focuses mostly on her certification as a strength and conditioning specialist. Lyra is using this training to give women performance strategies specifically targeted at female physiology and the energetic and metabolic fluctuations that can accompany a menstrual cycle. She brings sensitivity, intelligence, wit, and grace to the professional coaching and guiding worlds, and we love her for it. So without further ado, let's welcome Lyra. Well, yeah, let's just start with where you grew up and how that maybe played into how you got into all the all the sports.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I grew up in Vallejo, California, Far from the Mountains, single mom musician, and did not grow up with any of the mountain sports. So that's kind of a funny. I did grow up a competitive athlete, and I joked that I was like perfectly designed for biathlon. I got really into skate skiing and um as a as a young adult, but I grew up rollerblading, playing soccer and playing the violin. And that was like violin posture was like perfect for uh holding a gun. That was kind of bizarre. And so it was an impeccable shot naturally, and then um the start-stop uh heart rate from years of soccer and rollerblading. And so it's just a funny, I always like to point to that because um athleticism is athleticism and can be developed at all ages. And connective tissues, we used to think that connective tissues had like an age um on them, and they and they do, I can speak to accumulative injuries and things, but we are always at a point where we can improve our fitness and health. Um so yeah, so that's kind of where I came from. I got um did the tour of California, um, went to UC San Diego and thought I was gonna head down the the marine biology route, and then um a job at a at Scripps Institution of Oceanography had just a perfect storm of interesting coincidences, and I ended up in a a job that took me, a field like tech job in biology that took me to the Sierra for a summer. And I was carrying massive backpacks and setting up um field sites for a long-term ecological research site in the Sequoia Kings Canyon and based out of the White Mountain Research Station in Bishop, and there was no looking back from that one.

Cat 3:24

And and how old were you when you did that? So that was after college.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Yeah, and I had through college, I had gotten way into rock climbing. I studied abroad twice. I was on track to finish early, and so I just like paused and um used some of the finances and scholarships that I had to fund a year in the French Alps. So that was formative, and that's where I met mountain guiding, and I was like, wait a minute, you can do this like as a career, and it's like a centuries-old career or a century-old career there. So that was really inspiring. Um, but I learned to ski at age 20. I learned to ski in the French Alps. Nice.

Cat 4:06

Yeah. So then did you have some mentors in the French Alps that um got you on the track to start working towards a career in guiding, or did that come a little bit later?

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Actually, it was a great question. It was more through university. I there was an outdoor education program at the University of California, San Diego called Outback Adventures. It was like kind of like an outward bound or Knowles. A lot of the students that went through that program did end up working for outward bound and knolls and either coming back or like moving on to education, outdoor education. And they had a related climbing gym. And so we staffed the climbing gym. And so it just ended up being this kind of community of outdoor educators, outdoor recreation, college-age students. And we operated in Joshua Tree National Park and therefore we're regulated by the park regulations. And we had to have an AMDH trained, what we now call the single-pitch instructor on staff who oversaw our training. So that was my first um brush with the AMGA. And I remembered just having like I noticed being out in the field with that team, how many more climbs we got in, how much more fun we had, how much safer it all. It was like just all the things. And I was really inspired by it. And that just kind of logged in the back of my mind for a long time. And then I was like, right, so marine biology and wherever that came from. I grew up on the coast, so that far cry from the ocean. Oh my gosh, so far. Oh, it was very funny. Um, better fit, I think, for me in the mountains. But I sink like a rock, never took to surfing very well. It was a terrible surfer, but yeah, so that that foundation, I think, just kind of got in there. It was really inspiring. And when I went to the Alps, that really sealed it. Um the access and the community, and then seeing that that was a reasonable thing you could do with your life seemed really cool. And so I came home and and that was that was it.

Alps Exposure And Mentors

Jeannie 6:11

Yeah, that's interesting. Cause I mean, I I know in the, you know, seeing guides in the Alps, obviously they make a full-time career of it and they make good money. But coming back to like the AMGA and the fact that you had kind of started a good trajectory with your work, you know, in the in this era, it's super curious to me. Like, I I can't imagine looking at that and being like, yeah, that's gonna just be great. Like, I really want to do that. You know, I can see you already had this career track and you went into something far harder for women, especially, I think, and something that is very physical. So it's also got its challenges down the road. So, yeah, what what was that catch? Like, what hoped you?

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Oh gosh. And that it is, I think that's such an adept way to frame it too. Because now at 41, I am kind of like, good gracious, what was I thinking? You know, like talk talk about return on investment in the expense that I've paid to be a certified and internationally certified mountain guide is pretty silly. And I did I, you know, I was fully self-fun funded and had some some help here and there, got a scholarship, but it's like it's pricey. Um, I would still, I do still sit here and say that it is the best choice I ever made and it fits me. And I've figured out ways to like support it in the meantime. So I I think the answer to it is I'm just not well suited to a seated desk job. And I'm a little bit more tolerant of it now. Um, but I know I have I have some friends, and it's funny because in like my little bubble of the world, the human who can sit at a desk and be productive for eight hours in a day is the anomaly. And yet, so many people I think are capable of that. And so that's just not how my body is wired, and that's not how my brain works. And I need a lot more movement to feel good. I start to feel really bad. And in so going back to the the, I'll try to tell the a brief-ish version of the story that kind of hooked me in there. So the I was working at REI and finishing up university in that last year after coming back from the Alps, and I got an email blurb from the ecology group that I was studying through with this job that took exactly what I had done with bugs in the mud that I was studying in the estuaries and even the deep sea, and like had gone on this like Alvin cruise in my in college and was like squarely on that route. But it it took those same bugs in the mud, and it was like, hey, we're looking for someone with outdoor leadership experience. And if you have experience with this type of identification of little bugs in the mud, that's a bonus. And it was like, I got the briefing, I was like, that's funny. And it opened the job description, and um, I thought that I was reading my resume. You know, it was one of those where you're like, huh, that's a so that's a fit. That's just so bizarre, quirky things. And so that was that first little like, huh? And it was White Mountain Research Station. I applied, immediately got called in, and my interview was to go backcountry skiing to meet the scientists who lived in Bishop. So I went up there for a long weekend in like April, skied outside, like behind their house. And that all of that just kind of pulled me there. And previously, when I lived in the French Alps, I remembered seeing this poster in a Patagonia store. And that poster at age 20, I looked at it and I was like, oh, that's my next place, you know, that youthful 20-year-old something. This is my next, my next destination, my next poll. And I had a closer look at the heading and it says Owens Valley, California. And it's this woman running through Bishop years after, actually, it took me several years to find the spot where the photo was taken. And that was just one of those, like, I was a smack in the face for a little, like little 20-year-old self, myself, being like, oh, this is my two. I was like, oh, it's probably like Tanzania or Tibet or something. It was no, this is your home state kid. Like, like, show some respect. Go back to California and like actually, and I'd never been to Bishop. I was the rock climber, I'd never been to Bishop. And so then, then, you know, I go through, I'm finishing up classes and I get that posting, and I'm like, huh, that's my resume. Wait a minute. No, that's the job posting. And it's Bishop. Cool. So that was my next and very obvious move. And I got there and then out of nowhere, just memory of that poster when I was living in Bishop and I was riding my bike from my house to the scientist's house to work on a research paper after the summer of field work in the mountains. And just trying to figure out my next move. And I'm like, God, what am I, what am I doing? And I was driving towards a master's, but I started to realize that I was actually trying to figure out a way to just stay there. And then in that time, I um closing some of the loops, I went back to that photo um that or that poster that I remembered from the French Alps, and I was like, I wonder who took that. And I emailed Patagonio and they were like, ah, we think this is a photo from a couple named um Janine and Dan Patatucci, who lived there for a long time, and they retained the rights to their own work. You should email them. And so I did a long, like rambling 20-year-old email, of course, like all excited and like, I moved here because of your photo. And they got right back to me. They're very charmed. Yeah, and uh coordinated a time to meet with Janine, who is in town. And I go and arrive early, and I sit and I have my coffee, and I'm like waiting for a show. And this woman comes through the door with a poster rolled under her arm and sits down next to me, and I still have that poster in my house framed. And so that was like just one of those, I think, and an early enough lesson that like sometimes you just you just gotta listen to what's being pulled in front of you. And that was a really important chapter. And I think the Eastern Sierra remains my favorite landscape on the planet, even having traveled. Um, the only continent now I haven't been to is Asia, fun fact. And yeah, and that that part of my home state is still like one of my favorite.

Cat 12:29

So I have to ask if like obviously you have like such a deep connection to that place. How did you end up leaving?

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Um, wildfire.

Cat 12:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Literally, yeah. I mean, I think that's the simplest answer. There's a a bunch of factors, of course, like it's very remote, California's expensive, living in a guide as a guide, especially at that time, and a younger guide was really hard. Oh, yeah. Um yeah, just uh it was a challenging time in life. And when that rim fire in 2012 closed parts of Yosemite, the guides I was working as a climbing guide for Yosemite Mountaineering School, we lost like a month and a half of work. And I had just so happened to leave early that year, and I was guiding a trekking trip in the Dolomites, you know, so long before I could do any technical work in in Europe. But I think that that kind of sunk in. I was like, oh, maybe I need to like this place is maybe not my forever place. Um, and then the other nudge there too, I finished the rock certification, and the next thing for me uh was going to be alpine and ski, and the Sierra climate being really kind of topsy turvy wasn't helping me out. And I would say too, that the rock is just so good there, it's hard to call it alpine. Yeah. And you don't get glaciers and you don't have there's great ice climbing, but not um, it's not all integrated into one experience. And I was like, you know what? I think I think Washington's gonna be my next place. Um yeah, but I didn't I didn't fully answer your question, Jeannie. The the why the why the guiding? And I think in all of that, there were so many things that just kept sticking. Like I went through my first guide education and I liked that. Um I liked being outside. And then I came from a musician who I watched for all of my life teach people how to make small changes to their movements to produce something even better or more beautiful. And I think that's ultimately what I how I relate to guiding and coaching and my own athleticism is yeah, and through a mu movement, um a movement art, I would say, more than anything.

Jeannie 14:51

Well, that's a really interesting analogy, not being a musician. I always think it's more of them teaching how to hear something that's a subtle change, right? Not a movement change, but with the violin it, you know, and you watch and it's that that makes sense.

Cat 15:06

Yeah. It sounds like with like leading trekking trips in the Dolomites, you were interested pretty early on in working abroad. And so did you have your did you have a goal of getting your pen pretty early on, or did that like evolve as you got more and more into your guiding career?

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that it lodged in there pretty early, and and I think early on I felt pretty driven by it. Um, but like I said, I learned to ski at like 20.

Jeannie 15:39

Yeah, and you hadn't really ice climbed much either, right? So those were both just things you were gonna have to learn and sort of think about it. It's always interesting to me with guides, because a lot of you like you kind of learn on the fly and as you're learning to guide.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Absolutely. And I think that it's it's an interesting thing because the American landscape is so different from the Alps landscape where you can grow up with all these things and in all of these things. You can take public transit, you know, and go ice climbing in Switzerland when you're a kid there. It's their life, it's their lifestyle.

Jeannie 16:14

I mean, we you know, for us the mountains are separate from how we live. And they live in the mountains. And so it's it's such a different way to to view the world and the mountains and their work, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

It really is, yeah. And it and in that paradigm of being a guide and in what we've translated, you know, to our version, we have to go through three separate disciplines. And and that ended up working. I I blasted through the rock discipline and then kind of hit pause for a while because I was like, uh, right, so what about this alpine and ski stuff? Cool. Um, and I'm athletic enough to to have figured it out. And um, and I was dedicated and young, I like traveling. I'm I'm more of that kind of personality, like to be on the move. And so I think all of it just like was enough of a match for me. And and I was able to get get persist with it. But it's an interesting when I tell my friends in France, having lived there, they're they're just like mystified at how we do the program here. And they're like, you go through to go through your program, you have to travel to the four corners of the planet. And I'm like, yeah, I could tell you.

Money Security For Women Guides

Jeannie 17:21

And and you have to spend your own money, basically, you know, which they also don't have to do. But that would be my next question is is how financially did you feel about that whole process and what it would cost you and when you would kind of break even and then and then segue that into what did it feel like at that point being a woman in that in that realm?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Ugh, yeah. The finances, I think it feels silly to recommend it as a choice to make for financial benefit. But I think that when we try to quantify security or quality of life or all of these things, it's if it's a good match for you, it's a great choice. Um I wasn't totally sure that I was gonna finish through the whole program. Um and when my mom moved to Italy, that gave me a little extra push. I was like, okay, let's let's get this thing done, just get through the end of the programs. I did like three programs in the last two years. And now there certainly is an increase in pay, which is great. And the access to work changes, which I really like. Um, as I get older, I can do more things with lighter packs. That's becoming important. Um, I can do less field days than my other my business comes in and plays into that as well. And I think I feel a lot of a gain in security in the fact that I can work in a really different place. And that that's added an element that I wasn't anticipating until it was available to me.

Cat 19:03

Yeah, what do you can you go into that a little bit more? Yeah, what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, I well so I also speak French. Um and I can realistically move over there with work. And that's just kind of a neat thing to add to the world of things that makes me feel secure, if not if not a big finance. You know, there is an alternative, like it's expensive to be an American. Um and if I crunch the numbers, there's ways to do things really differently. You can also move anywhere in the States, honestly.

Jeannie 19:39

You're at least quite a few places if you really needed to. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And now in the position I'm at, the pay being enough better, I can take less field days and potentially live somewhere more affordable.

Jeannie 19:53

So so before we get into your business, which it sounds like that has also made it financially kind of more stable for you to have this complementary business, which a lot of guides I think find a secondary thing, whether it's winter or summer. But before we jump into that, at the time you were going through all the courses, were there, you know, Fixmer was a great mentor for you. But it seems to me there still weren't that many women, you know, in the guiding courses. It was still men being all the examiners. I mean, how did that feel for you?

Injury Celiac And Rebuilding

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah, great question. Um like so many of us in that time, I think those who go through are going to be more of a personality or or something match for the realities of the time. I think the things that added up to trouble for me were a little bit more in the realm of like how you how you do the thing physically, how you physically are a guide, how you manage your your systems, your ballet setups, your your pack, like all of your can't all of your logistics, because we're um I heard the term used recently, a vocational athlete. You know, it's like I wouldn't call a mountain guide a professional athlete. That's kind of a different thing, but you are using your job. And I heard someone call it a vocational athlete regionally recently that I thought was very adept. And I had at 30 a major physical shutdown. I got like, um, came back from a Denali expedition, I had shooting pains down my left arm, and I had to take the rest of the season off. And I was like, either my career is over or I need to figure out how to do things differently. And and so that for me personally was ended up being the biggest crux, I would say, is like learning how to do all of the guide things with a body that's smaller and different. And then, you know, years down the road, that kind of led me down the coaching route as well. And beyond that, I think I was always I was what classic 1990s tomboy. So Being around a bunch of dudes was mostly fine with some problems along the way that definitely almost made me not return at times. And I think finding finding community was really helpful. And at every juncture there was an evolutionary step. Um, so I would probably say that I'm one that would that almost got lost along the way and just barely didn't. And I'm glad I didn't because I really like guiding.

Cat 22:30

Are there any like sliding doors moments that you can think of specifically where you were lured back in at the last minute, like ready to step away, but somebody encouraged you or you had a successful trip or a breakthrough?

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Ooh, gosh. I wonder I thought on that for a while. What would come? The first thing um that stands out to me, obviously, is when I was injured, I took a step back and I went and worked the Antarctic program. And that was an opportunity where I could what my question at that time was like, what was basically what am I doing? Like, what are you doing? Is this am I building a skill set that transfers to anything else? And the answer was yes, enough to keep me in it. And and I think that program showed me how the skill set that I was developing as a technical guide and just the mountain sense and the experience, not to mention just the fascination that I had with seeing those parts of the planet and strange glacier dynamics. I don't think I had any idea just how much seeing those glaciers and spending that kind of time on them would impact and inform my future guiding back in Washington and like the depth of then experience I now have to draw on, where I've seen so many different things changing at different scales. And I I don't think I had any appreciation for the accumulation of experience in that way. Like maybe that's age related, or just having, you know, more like you learn things through school, or you do things like sport and you get better through practice, and the accumulation of experience wasn't wasn't on my radar. So that I think was that that was just at that time was enough buy-in. I was like, okay, this skill set's cool, and there's something else happening here.

Jeannie 24:34

Yeah. I know, I like that connection. I think if you can help others find that connection to wildness and that kind of raw terrain, and the obviously you were intimating the dangers and the skills needed to cross glaciers and live around glaciers and how that translates into guiding. But but yeah, it sounds like you had a lot going on there that brought you back into still wanting to be out there and in the guided guiding world.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Yeah, it's an interesting job. I think what I like about it is the angle of stewardship and the opportunity to, you know, and on the one hand, bring people into a new form of athleticism. And it is like a fragile and increasingly fragile environment. And I mean, in the time I've been rock climbing, it certainly has become way more mainstream. And you can see in places there's big impacts to that that are harming the environment. And then there's other benefits where like you see more advocacy. And and I've I've always often said that too, that in taking people into wild places, they therefore appreciate and protect it better. I don't know that that's true. Yeah, I like the idea.

Jeannie 25:50

I mean, you hopefully you feel some of that with the people that you connect with more than the rest of us who see others out there and hope they're having a connection. I think it's harder and harder in our sort of trophy-seeking world to want to believe that. But um, but I like talking to you as a guide that that's important to you. Because I think, you know, obviously you got to make a living too. So it's tricky balance of what you're teaching them, what you're sh the experience you're giving them.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah. Well, that and that's kind of a good segue because I think that is also an age-old problem with guiding. And even in some really great stories I'm reading from French guides, you know, there they recount these stories where they're like, yeah, I like took on clients at the fringes of a season when it was a like borderline appropriate and had a close call and things like that, where you're just like, oh gosh, these pressures can be strange to complete an objective. And I think now, for on my mind, the most is the changing seasons that we have in the Northwest, for example, with the glaciers as um as they melt, as they they're they're also thinning. We think of recession as sometimes um, I think the image that comes to mind is like a tide where like the glaciers go out and they come back, um, but they also thin. And that's really important because they become like a pane of glass, they become more brittle. And so things are just falling down differently, and routes are changing, and change is happening more rapidly. We are changing our seasons, constraining our seasons more and more, and it's dynamic. There's a lot to consider. And so the choice I've made, and even going way back into the depths of history, and I don't have numbers on it, but I know a lot of guides in Europe have had other, they'll work in building careers, they will be hut managers, and they often will have other things going as well. So it's not wholly uncommon. There's a little better social services in Europe when I look at my basic living expenses compared to a European.

Jeannie 28:03

Yeah, I think it's way more common in the US that guides have a second career or second job than it might be.

Coaching Business Born In COVID

SPEAKER_02 28:08

They do have higher taxes, but when you actually look at income brackets, it's actually pretty similar. And then when you add how much I pay in health insurance because I'm self-employed, that blows it out of the water. Like I they when I tell them my annual expenses just for living, they are shocked. And my other career is my own business, so I'm not getting around that entirely with having another more or less self-employment reality. Um, but I had a client many years ago, and I just remember working with her and coaching her literally on every single step. I set her up with my colleague and I said, okay, you get the rope up there. And I walked right next to her for the entirety of the climb and was able to just remind her at these critical junctions to move better. And she was really responsive. And she was like 60. Her name was Virginia, I'll never forget her. And she summited and did a great job.

Cat 29:08

Was this on Rainier?

SPEAKER_02 29:10

This is on Mount Baker. Okay. On the Eastern Glaciers. So an appropriate first level kind of mountaineering objective. And she was scrappy and she pulled it off, and we were coming down, and she was like, you know, you sound like a coach. And that was another one that, like, oh, that went logged somewhere in the back of the brain, and then just like carried on and doing my guide thing and working on, you know, my interests. And then COVID was a big part of it in launching, taking time. I had fortunately enough um like paycheck protection for those few months in quarantine that I just dove into um the business structures and all the admin side. And the year prior, for some reason, I it had been in the back of my mind to do um to get my strength and conditioning specialist for some years. And for whatever reason, I finally got got the the bug to finish it because it was quite hard. I I studied biology, but not exercise physiology. And so it took a lot of study for me to go back and like and ultimately pass the exam. It was like a month of very dedicated study in my off season. And so I got that. Oh my god. And it was that was plenty. That was very cool. But super interesting, I'm sure. And remains interesting. Yeah. And I went for the higher level because I had a background in science. I didn't want the personal trainer. I wanted that next level. And I was just like, I think I was starting to get a little wise. I was around um right around, I think I was 31. And I was like, I need to think a little more creatively and a little more about my security. And um, I had grown up with an example of like my dad went into tech and he was amazing at it. And he did the like, I'm gonna raise kids and have a family, and my parents split when I was young. And then I had my mom, who was this artist, just kind of doing what she loved and uh very financially responsible and made it work. And so I just had these like weird models of like, how do you, how do you do the security thing? And then eventually that was the COVID push was like, oh, now you have dedicated time, you are stable for a few months. And I had a couple clients that I had guided who were like client zero and call them. They're really great. They're two of them.

Cat 31:27

Are you coaching? So um, yeah, I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around like uh like what type of movement you teach, because you're not like giving people a weight training program or or things like that, are you? Or is it or is it more like that? Or are you actually helping people alter their their athletic movements to maintain healthier range of motion and ligaments and tendons and all that?

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Yeah. Yeah, I kind of try to tackle all of that in a remote setting. So the um what I've put together for my like full package is is a fairly because of my work as a guide, it's fairly low touch. And so that requires my clientele to be quite independent and self-driven, which is wonderful because that's the I love working with that. Um, like I'm not gonna be the coach that shows up at 5 30 at the gym to like really motivate someone. That's just not what you're gonna get from me. I maybe on the mountain, you know, I'll I'll stand next to you and and help. But um when I was really injured, I saw a next specialist and you self-report how much better you are. And I think I got to like 85% of normal. And they're like, okay, cool. Well, that's like, you know, acceptable. And then I was like, so mountain guide, I I need like 110% of normal, not 85%. So that started my journey on seeking body work to help me stay strong and balanced, and turned out to be a really great investment. I found people who helped me out of pathology, but I didn't find the person who could take, you know, that now healthier form and actually help me build in a way that was constructive for me and my body. So I started going to various training programs, usually for coaches. And then eventually I was like, oh, these are really helpful just for my own interest. And so I started, I got my certification, and then that gave me access to more and continuing education.

Cat 33:36

So yeah, it sounds like you were not only pursuing a career as a coach, but also simultaneously trying to heal yourself.

Why Women Need Power Training

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah. And actually, I would say the for the former or the latter first. It was more like I was trying to figure out like, okay, what's I'm gonna have to go to the raw materials here, you know, of of the how do you put your strength back together? And I had a whole youth as a competitive athlete, and I in my teens, I was in the weight room. So I had a lot of competence and confidence in that. Um, but yeah, so that that was I and I started to develop a sense for how to support my body. Um, and one of the big things and the big changes that I think made me feel like I was out of place in an industry, mostly with men, that then um now I know from from diving into the research on how to train the female physiology, is that the male physiology does really well with volume. They get stronger with volume. And the female physiology is extraordinary with endurance and needs to do focus training on strength and power, otherwise, it will kind of go away. And so for me, working as a mountain guide, which is entirely volume, those strength, I was gonna get really good at the thing that I do, but my strength and power was going to fall away until injury showed up, which it did. Yeah, does that kind of work go ahead?

Jeannie 35:11

Oh no, it just kind of makes me laugh because Lyra, I mean, you had the same experience probably with biathlon, but you know, no in the days when we were training in Nordic and biathlon, it's just it was like volume, volume, volume, and you did a little weightlifting. But yeah, but I mean, it's taken me decades to learn that if I slow down and do power, it's so much stronger even on the big days, right? And and it's super interesting to hear you say that that is consistent, more consistent for women than men. I hadn't really thought about that. Um but I do think uh it it is it is something I still see even when you watch the Olympics right now, you can tell. Like if someone's not totally, but you know, the sort of overtraining uh versus just uh take more rest, do more power, do more weight type stuff. You'll always have the endurance, you know, when you're involved in those things. Um climbing. I mean, we can all go walk around in the mountains and do big moderate days, but you can't withstand that or get on to the next level without those strength power days. So I love it. Sounds like you found the gap out there, maybe gonna guide me here in terms of your business acumen and and benefit with being with women, with that in particular, the strength thing, and then also maybe with injury and how do we move through injury and keep that balance. Is that absolutely yeah?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

And I suspect that I got a little bit of that smack down younger than most. And I was um Kat, I was telling you this, but Jeannie, you were the first one that ever used the word celiac with me. I don't know if you remember that. Oh funny. Um, but that that was right around that time as well. I was like injured around 30 and having something going on, and and like turn turns out very clearly uh have celiac.

Jeannie 37:06

Wow, which is just like loads of inflammation in your system, and you're not getting minerals and vitamins and so you can't heal, you know. So wow, I didn't realize that that you figured that out, and that must have made a really profound difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Huge difference. Once I unplugged that, it was for me, fortunately, it was just that one thing. And once I unplugged that, then I started recovering. I started healing, my tissues got better, and and then all of my 30s, I just kept getting stronger and more durable.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Which is exciting. I like that. I love that. We should all be more durable. That's good. Oh my gosh. I mean, I don't in every way, actually. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I'm I'm loving, I'm loving being in my 40s, that's for sure. It's been a good one. And it's, you know, you accumulate things with time, but we can definitely get smarter. And now we know we can train smarter and and use the gifts of that female physiology. And yeah. I think what troubles me the most in retrospect, um, which seems very silly and very small, but like actually try because of my concurrent passion or my my two passions, is that I know that there were women along that path that would hear from men that you shouldn't need to train to be a mountain guide. And that just like that hurts. And that one, that one really stings because it's such a lack of awareness. And this wasn't like everywhere, but I think that there is just not enough of an acknowledgement of how whenever you have a community or something that is so homogenous, like all of the norms in there are going to be built upon assumptions rooted in that homogenous population. And if those assumptions are so prevalent and then super damaging, and then we end up with stereotypes and things that confirm themselves because we're just setting up an entire population to not thrive or feel good. And it has been liberating to find other information and then put myself through it and feel so much better, and then work with other women athletes. Um, also in mostly working with women athletes who are in the mountain sports. And it's mind-boggling how how empowering it is and restorative.

Jeannie 39:28

Interesting. I feel like we need a whole nother book about endurance athletes and uphill uphill athletes that's just women, you know, because I mean, I know those guys, they did a brilliant job, but it's still still very male focused in terms of you know what it's like learning all about coal plunging for women, how different that is hormones and how everything is tied up in how different we recover and how we how different we need to train for power.

Cat 39:56

I mean, yeah. Well, I have two questions. So the women needing to train for power. Do you know what the the physiology is behind that? I'm just curious.

Cycle Tracking Fueling Perimenopause

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Like it is a link to uh the way that our home hormones work in our body, specifically in locking into uh fat-burning metabolism or endurance, having a preference for that. Okay. Yeah. So then, and the the good little like TLDR is um when you are in the first part of or what we consider the follicular phase. So when you are building up to ovulation, our immune system is very strong and you can tolerate most kinds of training. And you like, and all of this too is is all about monitoring yourself, you know, and like responding to your body and getting to know what works for you. And it's not like prescriptive, um, everyone's going to be a little different. But there are elements of the biology that's actually happening that are really important. And the things that I've found the most constructive and seen be the most constructive anecdotally, and for myself, is um first not stress too much about getting it perfect. And then pay attention, keep a log. And so you start to learn your own patterns. And that can be a really simple log, but some sort of a log that you are aware of where your cycle is, what training you did, and how you felt and how you recovered. And then from that, when you go up from ovulation towards the end of your cycle, that's when your hormones kind of start to get wild. They rise at different rates, they overlap and they have different impacts depending on how they do that. You hit perimetopause, they're doing that at different rates because your your ovaries are not sending as much estrogen anymore, and it just kind of gets chaotic. When that is happening, that's called the luteal phase. Your basal metabolic rate is higher, your heart rate will tend to be higher, resting heart rate's higher, and you want to eat more food to feel the same way. That's when you want to hydrate better and focus on electrolytes and all of those things. And notably, I always have to still remember remind myself when I'm in that phase, I have to make sure that I'm consuming more sugar, more simple sugars when I'm working out. Carb loading doesn't really work for a female physiology. But when you are strained in that luteal phase, if you keep a more regular hydration electrolyte and fueling strategy and boost that sugar consumption, whatever form of sugar works for you, that can really help your performance. And then you're like, oh, and I feel normal. And if you don't, you get that quick feedback, and you're like, oh, I feel terrible.

Cat 42:47

I was gonna ask, you know, where does perimenopause fit into this when your cycle starts to be more all over the place and tracking is harder or or maybe not as effective? Are most of your clients pre-perimenopausal? Or do you have like a enough of a mix that you've seen um yeah, different things that work for the different like phases of yeah?

SPEAKER_02 43:15

I've got a total mix going. It's awesome. And some dudes. And the dudes are awesome. They're I they're all af like 30s and and on. And I think honestly, in in so much of our training literature, it's rooted in science that has been done on the 20-something year old male for the most part. And so even like aging men are a little bit lost in the sauce as well. So that's just an interesting aside. For the female physiology, I think there's always the question like, well, what if I'm on some sort of contraception and I can't track, or if I have IUD and I can't track. And with IUDs, you're still ovulating, and you can use ovulation predictor strips, and you can you can Find your cycle in that way. And if if that's just too cumbersome, don't even worry about it. Just keep a log. And the store, my favorite story I can share about that one is one woman I've been working with for years who's turning 40 soon. Like when we started working together, her PCOS was quite severe. Her cycle was undetectable. And she now has a regular cycle. And in her, she's been on it in all of the ways, you know, and training with me was one of those. And what we did was just say, okay, well, we're going to we we understand that there is a cycle somewhere under here, and that training in a way that is responsive to your physiology is going to help to remove a stressor that's unnecessary. And so we just developed a way of um like communicating and and logging things and monitoring and responding to her body and her feelings around the things and how it responded. A tool that's really useful for that is heart rate variability.

Cat 45:08

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

And it's kind of, and if if you don't want to use anything, that's also fine. Like literally your own feelings about things is the gold standard. Heart rate variability can out can add a confirmation to that that can help you cut through the noise. And um, so that's my favorite tool out there. What we first did was just have her report every morning her energy on a percentage scale. And then we started to notice that there was like a couple of weeks in a row that her energy would be sustained at like 90 to 100% every morning, and then it would suddenly drop and it would be in the like 50% range for a while. And so over time we just watched that and then became convinced that we were like, I think we might be seeing your body's natural cycle, and we just stayed consistently responsive to her energy. Wow. And in so doing, then we're removing the stressors from a time that her body was otherwise extra stressed. And and I don't want this to come across as like you can't perform at certain times of your cycle, like you absolutely can. And the awareness of what is going on is really helpful to for your fueling and your hydration strategies. And that's the big takeaway. Um, and it's not that you have to work out this way or that way. Uh sleep hygiene is definitely more important when your body is otherwise under stress. But all of this is just it's in that luteal phase, our bodies are a little extra taxed, and so they deserve a little extra strategy and care and recovery.

Cat 47:01

I love that. I love that you keep it simple and um digestible and like you know, you don't need to go out and get like a whoop or some expensive device to like check your HRV every morning. Like, I really love the just writing down a percentage that indicates how much energy you feel and just trusting that. Like we don't need a device to tell us how we feel.

Jeannie 47:28

Yeah, I love that too. I mean, in a world where there's a million devices now and you there's a million forms of feedback, right? That are telling us like, take collagen, take creatine, you know, take supplements and check your HRV and do this and be on Strava. And oh my gosh. You know, I think also just in training, if you like you being competitive at a sport, you know, you had you had the schedule, and it was sort of based on these, at least in my case, male coaches who would be like, okay, three weeks on, one week off. It yeah, it never had anything to do with our cycles or how we really felt, right? So it was super easy to get over-trained and underpowered. And I think it sounds really beautiful the work you're doing to bring it back to just a human and and in your case, you know, of a feminine, female like hormonal level, where it's like maybe she can go two weeks fully on, but then that week off needs to be like a big week off, right?

Cat 48:27

And it's we never give ourselves, or I will just say it's hard to give ourselves in this culture of everybody hiring life coaches and coaches and trainers, and you know, I think we've been like trained by like literally trained in your case, Jeannie, and then like trained by society and trained by working in the male-dominated guiding industry to like not respect our cycle and ignore it and to like keep on keeping on, which maybe is fine for men, but like I know for me, like the beginning and the end of my cycle, I feel like a different person, like energetically, just like up for totally different types of objectives at different points in my cycle.

Jeannie 49:17

And and let's say you're in the Olympics and you don't have a choice, right? And you're being in your biggest race at the worst hormonal time of your thoughts. Oh my gosh. But but just understanding that, like just having that information that you could work with someone and be like, okay, you're gonna get that starting gate. And rather than go, oh my god, this is the worst day of the month for me to do this race. Maybe we actually get some tools, you know, maybe there are tools out there we can use for those for those days. You know, with climbing, we're lucky it's not a a competitive sport, so we can pick our objectives, but sometimes you can't. Sometimes you're out there and you're you're on right.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

A friend recently sent me an article about um some new research into female physiology and and the headline, the way that they wrote the headline, it pointed to um like something something helps female athletes avoid injury. And it was just it hit me really hard in a negative way because it just what was in front of my face was like, why in all of this? Like then the the article started and it was all about female performance and like all these cool things. And I was like, but why in the headline did you highlight injury? And there's still, I think, a really troubling theme of the way that we talk about female performance, and it goes back to a lot of the uninformed vilification of women training through pregnancies, for example. And that messaging still still sneaks in there and it it really breaks my heart. Um it's interesting to see where we go with the research. And my hope is that we don't get pigeonholed in like, yes, helping with injury is great. And also, how do we help women thrive in all of the life cycles? That research is getting better. We are starting to now see studies for peri and post-menopausal populations that are um on active populations more and more. Um that yeah, that that messaging and that steering of the research, I hope, continues in a way that helps us to develop more tools and resources so that we can be in that phase where we're like, oh, I feel more taxed. We have a few things now with like fueling and hydrating. But that would be my wish for the future of the research.

Jeannie 51:45

Yeah, well, I think even in your work, the relanguaging of that and the you know, the way you are coaching and teaching and helping people. I mean, I think that's the best place to start, right? I mean, the research papers, it would be really helpful if they would get it as well. But I I think you're taking that research and you're putting it into real life experience and and helping people. And I think, I mean, just this conversation and the language that you've used in the the the way that you've kind of choreographed that in terms of the work you're doing and what the help that you know many of us might need and not even know it, and that there's actually the help is out there is it's super encouraging and really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Sometimes just the validation, you know, and I often will remind my athletes that like it's okay to take two days off in a row if you're not feeling great. Like the dead are such a hard sell. Like you're gonna be okay. I promise.

Jeannie 52:46

And if only you can get through to all of us with that, it'll be like a minimal. That'll be like such progress.

Cat 52:52

So, Lira, I have a question for you. And um, this is like just me asking you for some quick free advice. Um, I I I totally tend towards like only endurance training. That's what feels good for me. But honestly, the biggest thing is I don't get injured doing that. And whenever I start strength training, I tend to get injured. And is that a thing that you have seen with women that like are inexperienced with lifting weights? Or is it like probably like starting too heavy or oof?

SPEAKER_02 53:35

That is uh you should come into the gym and we'll look at things. Answer.

unknown 53:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

That is probably so. My next my next continuing ad I'm super excited about is um I'm working on a corrective exercise specialist. Oh cool. That that's an exciting branch of all of this because that takes what I feel like a lot of the intuitive stuff that I've picked up on in just moving my body over many years and being a sensitive person into a much more efficient package and a couple of movements that you can do and assess and look at someone and say, ah, here's the here's the imbalance, and here's your prescription, literally. Um, so that's just a way that I'm balancing my in my professional skill set. Um, but also every athlete is different. And just because the world of like being a female athlete is buzzing right now about strength training, there's also plenty, like the dominant um, I guess, paradigm we're seeing around that is that in general, the female physiology is more predisposed to perform or respond better to sport at like a late morning to mid-afternoon. And early morning workouts are not recommended. And I have women that I train who are early morning workouters, and it's fine, you know, and so it it is there is also a spectrum within all the spectrums of um, but I would probably say for you, it could be um probably some form related. Did you grow up did you grow up in a weight room at all doing any no girl?

Cat 55:10

I did not touch a weight until I was like 35. Yeah. Like lifted a beer or two, but then yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

And I think that that speaks to the other like the other little fire in my heart, which is the extent to which we've been excluded from that knowledge is providing a lot of um trouble in our data currently. You know, like when we do all these studies and they're on a population that has systemically not been involved in sport in a certain way, then that data is going to be skewed and not uh it's just that's you know, but whatever. That's how science works and it it corrects itself over time. But what we're dealing with right now is like you and me in an age bracket that are not haven't really like I happen to be strangely lucky in a in a town that had phenomenal coaches. We had I was a track athlete and a soccer athlete, and our track team went to state every year. And the coaches we had were like unbelievable. And they put the girls in the weight room with everybody else. Cool. And we did the same things. And that experience, as I've gotten older and I've looked back on it, I'm just like, wow, Vallejo High School just knocked it out of the park. Um, and those coaches were life-altering, like to this to this day. But that's not the norm. So that was and and that, so I think that's a huge gap in just the the movement. Um, I guess multiple things. Like it is to some extent just walking into a weight room with a level of confidence and comfort and ease and knowing how things work.

Cat 56:50

Yes. Oh my gosh. I mean, I don't feel comfortable in a weight room at all, but yeah, it's a weird environment. Uh-huh. Yeah. Maybe I'll have to hire you for a little consultation. Come on down, don't want to come on over and visit.

Jeannie 57:06

I love the combination that you've cultivated with guiding and in this new quest to help women and you know, I think the combination is super interesting. I mean, it gives me a lot of encouragement for the guiding industry and for, you know, and I feel uh that the women who you guide are lucky uh, you know, to have you.

Cat 57:25

And it's that's a oh my gosh, I know I'm thinking about you like coaching this woman step by step, like all the I'm like, wow, that is some true like passion for your work and dedication to facilitating an amazing experience for another person. Like it's it's yeah, you you obviously have to love what you do to be able to do that and and to come away from that trip, appreciating the experience rather than like, oh my God, fuck that. I had to coach every step, you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

Yes. And I think I think that perfectly nails the sustainability of the career. And where, yeah, if it's it is the hardest and silliest thing I could have ever chosen to do with my life, and it is such an impeccable fit that there's not a moment or a single hardship that I regret.

Making Guiding Sustainable Closing Advice

Cat 58:19

Well, it's a great reminder that you know, doing what you love in the end is a sustainable choice, and um and I think a financially responsible choice too, because you you don't have a problem with going to work. And um that's financially responsible in and of itself, just choosing to do something where that's not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Security is a funny thing, and I think that we were as guys, we were back to work so fast in COVID because we worked outside. There have just been so many bizarre, I feel like in my life and career, there have been so many bizarre reflections that like I've gotten where I'm just like, well, that's not quite what I thought.

Jeannie 59:10

You know, I will say this is a great eye-opener for me because usually I see my women friends who are trying to be guides or want to be guides, or there are guides already, but they're going down the you know, full cert path. And I can't say that I I'm super encouraging just because I feel like A, there it's still a very male-driven world that's challenging. B, costs a lot of money. C, I think women's bodies don't hold up as long to that potentially full-time rigorous sort of profession. But, you know, it's like what you're saying is you'll find a balance, and it is still a really joyful and fulfilling and exciting career for as a woman. Yeah. You know, the flip side is I want more women guides out there because it changes things. And I mean, I just went skiing in the Tetons and I came across two groups of guys who are being guided by a woman, and I was like, rock on. I was, you know, it's so cool. I was just like, okay, this is finally happening. This is so good. And I and they looked all psyched, and it was it was great. So yeah, so thank you for the work you're doing and for uh I think opening our minds and mine at least, into you know, a lot of the different aspects of guiding and life in that realm and what you can do um by finding something else to complement it too.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think it it's guiding is objectively hard on the body. And some people are tolerate it, tolerate that amount of volume better than others. And I I have that same like I get ruffled when I'm like, oh, it feels like am I just not up to the task because of who I am and because of how I'm built or because of whatever cards I've been dealt. And then I kind of try to like shift it and wonder, like, well, but hold on, like the ask of this career of our bodies is objectively enormous. And why is that praised? Why is that normal? And is it okay to be, can you be the the guide that you want to be and divest from that expectation of volume? Because I think there's also a lot of pressure there that, like, if you're a real guide, you're like in the field 200 days a year. And that's going away.

Jeannie 1:01:31

But I think that that has I kind of see a third profession for you because oh, tell me. Well, I mean, it would be fascinating for for the guiding industry, the AMGA specifically, probably in the you know, the states, um, to have someone like you in a position to work with women guides in that context of like, how do you make this sustainable? What's the difference? Like, what things might you work on that are different from male guides? And that goes back to just the very beginning of what you said. It's like the profession used to be just climb or ski or whatever it is all the time. And you don't need to train for this. You don't need to, you just need to do it and do it well, and then everybody will respect you and you'll be a great guide. And like any profession, it's like you you don't just become a parent by popping out a kid. You know, you kind of need to read some books and do some training and maybe study a little bit about what it's like to bring a kid in the world. Thank God I never did it. But you know, it's like you can actually do it be a really, really worthwhile and um I don't know. I think that would be amazing. And maybe the the profession will evolve into having resources like that sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

Yeah. I mean, it's a great I I love that you bring that up. The IFMJ, we did just have a meeting with uh several IFMGA women from uh American IFMJ women, uh, because the IFMGA from Switzerland is asking why aren't there more women on the international stage? So in in the US, we are seven or eight percent, I think, and in the global, globally two percent. And the context, which is fascinating, is that there's a a competitor to the IFMGA, and it's a really reputable trekking certification. It is super cool, but they are thriving and they have a growing population of guides, and they are wanting to operate and bring ISACs crampons into their repertoire. And the IFMGA is like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, that's that's our terrain. So we are at an interesting, I think, crossroads. Can this other organization guide technical rock? No, I don't know a ton about it, but my understanding is it is like mountain trekking and everything that's not technical. Um, but but because they are thriving, they are psyched and they want to be able to expand their terrain. And I I do feel as as a guide that like the extent and depth of experience that we've accumulated in training to the IFMGA level is phenomenally valuable. And so I think I would be in that in that camp that's like, hold on, let's let's actually keep that those tools within this skill set.

Jeannie 1:04:22

But look at Ectum, I mean, they ran a certain way to guide for 50 years and it worked really well. And absolutely I think evolving the mindset to the to the level that's needed for that trekking company to have guides that can do that, and not being so staunchly set that it's black and white and there's a line in the sand of like, no, you got to go through IFMGA training, you know, I think that's a detriment to their clients and the people. I don't know, there's something there that everybody can open their minds to and being a, you know, there might be Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

The issue in it that I see very more acute is they're struggling to graduate IFMGA guides. And so then they don't have enough, and that's the pressure is that they have all these people and they're like, hey, we have these people that can guide these things and that want to, like, we should have terrain access.

Cat 1:05:19

And so the in that structure of things, the problem seems to be that they're not graduating enough of those guides, and also I don't know the expenses of all the things, but I imagine is this because people aren't um enrolling or not passing exams or not able to afford or all of the above?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

I believe every nation I think um is maybe a little different. The outreach came from an acknowledgement that the American uh guiding, the AMGA, is doing a really good job with diversity and graduating more and more guides. And they were like, How are you doing this? In other areas, I think Switzerland, I believe, is graduating less. And just anecdotally, in my awareness, I think there is an acknowledgement of increasing hazards in the mountains related to glacial changes, relating to variable weather, seasonal constraints, and a lot of those glaciers receding such that the in-between terrain is becoming harder to get through. It's harder to access that makes sense. Um, long time trade routes. So they're at a point and they're changing. I think Washington is starting to see this level of rapid change now, but I think from what I can view, it seems like the ops is like 10 or 20 years advanced. Oh, yeah.

Jeannie 1:06:51

Yeah, in front of us with all of that. Super interesting and really value your work and really appreciate it. And I'm so glad to learn more of where you've landed and what you're doing. It's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:04

Yeah, great to rec to reconnect. Yeah.

Cat 1:07:07

Yeah. I guess um we'll just wrap it up with if there's like a brief nugget of advice that you would give to someone who's, you know, 22 and thinking about becoming a guide and going down the big path. What nugget would you share with them?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

It's not easy. And it's if it's a good fit, it's absolutely worth it.